I've heard in Tibetan tradition they believe after death....

[FaDao]

I suppose an 'acid test' would be whether a teaching is effective with no cultural accretions at all.

Exactly. If we can discern the root dhamma of a teaching removed from the cultural "literary spices and devices" that may surround the telling of the teaching, we can discover the "teaching with no cultural accretion." At that point we can determine its effectiveness as root dhamma -- whereafter there is indeed dhamma without cultural baggage. As a meal, meat and potatos are common to every cultural. The meal becomes culturally attenuated cuisine when you add different spices, but without the spices each cultural concoction is sill meat and potatos.

In the case of Buddhism, as with all religions or 'belief systems', this is very difficult, as the author(s) of the teachings were all steeped in their own culture.

True indeed. But by studying the various cultures and comparing the root dhamma between (for example) Theravada, Vajrayana and Ch'an suttas on the same dhamma theme, we can identify the meat and the potatos -- and enjoy the flavors of the different spices in each telling of the teahing.

It would be a brave person who claimed Buddha was not extensively influenced by his own culture...

Again - true enough. To some extent, the teachings of Gautama were a response to what he perceived as the failings of early Vedic Hinduism.

...and a brave commentator who claimed not to be influenced by their own.

But if we recognize cultural baggage as such and endeavor to discern the root dhamma, our horizons expand. We can learn to appreciate the dhamma of a given telling and the various cultural contributions to the spreading of that dhamma within the given cultural context. As an intellectual amusement, read the American "Uncle Remus" stories. Almost all of them are retellings of the Jataka Tales.

Namo Amitofo
- Fa Dao-

[Yeshe]

Here is a project which promises much with respect to the provision of Buddhadharma in English without cultural accretions:

http://www.khyentsefoundation.org/2009_ ... rence.html

I would be loathe to abandon Sanskrit for Dharanis and Mantras, however. I think the one cultural accretion we may find acceptable would be that of India - as I think it is necessary to contextualise the original teachings. And I am utterly prejudiced in that as I love the country and many aspects of its traditional culture. LOL

It is a source of constant consternation for me that many young people in India seek to dump their own traditional culture in favour of the burger-bar .

[FaDao]

I would be loathe to abandon Sanskrit for Dharanis and Mantras, however. I think the one cultural accretion we may find acceptable would be that of India - as I think it is necessary to contextualise the original teachings. And I am utterly prejudiced in that as I love the country and many aspects of its traditional culture. LOL

It is a source of constant consternation for me that many young people in India seek to dump their own traditional culture in favour of the burger-bar .

Quite understandable -- neither would I abandon the understandings I have gained from the Chinese translations of the Sanskrit and the later Chinese commentaries. It must also be said that I understand my position may be a bit "unusual."

Our order (as I have said before) is the "white boy" wing of a Chinese cultural order. Our order was established specifically to translate the Ch'an teachings into accessible Euro-American terms so as to spread the dhamma itself. When I entered the order, the first thought I brought along is that I was raised in Texas -- not China. I cannot become Chinese any more than I could become an ice cream cone.

Thus, it is not my place to send anyone to the burger bar or the ice cream parlour -- it is my place to introduce the folk at the American burger bar to the root-dhamma of Ch'an. In order to do so, I have had to carefully study the Ch'an teachings and their precursors in order to "extract the root dhamma" and phrase that dhamma into an American idiom. I have done that with fairly close supervision of cultural Chinese masters -- and must admit that sometimes even they find my translations somewhat "odd". But you cannot explain a hamburger in terms of sushi. It is hard enough explaining that bouillabaise and gumbo are essentially the same -- even harder if first you have to explain bouillabaise and gumbo to a Chinese Master.

If one is to translate the dhamma from one milieu to another, one must endeavor to discern the dhamma from the milieu of the cultural foundation of one's own tradition and then present the understandings in one's own cultural "lingo." To do so, one must discern the "root dhamma" and then find a way to offer it into a cultural framework.

Namo Amitofo
- Fa Dao -

[Yeshe]

I would be loathe to abandon Sanskrit for Dharanis and Mantras, however. I think the one cultural accretion we may find acceptable would be that of India - as I think it is necessary to contextualise the original teachings. And I am utterly prejudiced in that as I love the country and many aspects of its traditional culture. LOL

It is a source of constant consternation for me that many young people in India seek to dump their own traditional culture in favour of the burger-bar .

Quite understandable -- neither would I abandon the understandings I have gained from the Chinese translations of the Sanskrit and the later Chinese commentaries. It must also be said that I understand my position may be a bit "unusual."

Our order (as I have said before) is the "white boy" wing of a Chinese cultural order. Our order was established specifically to translate the Ch'an teachings into accessible Euro-American terms so as to spread the dhamma itself. When I entered the order, the first thought I brought along is that I was raised in Texas -- not China. I cannot become Chinese any more than I could become an ice cream cone.

Thus, it is not my place to send anyone to the burger bar or the ice cream parlour -- it is my place to introduce the folk at the American burger bar to the root-dhamma of Ch'an. In order to do so, I have had to carefully study the Ch'an teachings and their precursors in order to "extract the root dhamma" and phrase that dhamma into an American idiom. I have done that with fairly close supervision of cultural Chinese masters -- and must admit that sometimes even they find my translations somewhat "odd". But you cannot explain a hamburger in terms of sushi. It is hard enough explaining that bouillabaise and gumbo are essentially the same -- even harder if first you have to explain bouillabaise and gumbo to a Chinese Master.

If one is to translate the dhamma from one milieu to another, one must endeavor to discern the dhamma from the milieu of the cultural foundation of one's own tradition and then present the understandings in one's own cultural "lingo." To do so, one must discern the "root dhamma" and then find a way to offer it into a cultural framework.

Namo Amitofo
- Fa Dao -

I like the phrase, ''cultural framework''.

I suppose I could compare this with attempts to introduce Chinese and Japanese martial arts into western countries not used to the way of thinking, and in many cases unable to perform techniques easily due to height, flexibility and postural habits.

Better to attach the Dharma to a cultural framework than seek to attach the culture of the new host culture to the Dharma and alter elements of the Dharma in the process.

[FaDao]

I like the phrase, ''cultural framework''.

I suppose I could compare this with attempts to introduce Chinese and Japanese martial arts into western countries not used to the way of thinking, and in many cases unable to perform techniques easily due to height, flexibility and postural habits.

Quite acceptable. In relation to the Martial arts, I have seen two faulty paradigms. In one there seems to be an expectation that an occidental student must "become oriental" in order to learn the techniques and underlying dhamma. In the other extreme. I enrolled my poor son in a martial arts "zendo" wherein the teacher warped the dhamma into a Christian teaching tool and evetually was arrested for physically abusing his young students who did not "tow the official line" that the teacher laid out. Fortunately, my son did not suffer over-much under that "cultural framework". There were some interesting discussions between the zen priest and the Christian martial arts "expert," however.

Better to attach the Dharma to a cultural framework than seek to attach the culture of the new host culture to the Dharma and alter elements of the Dharma in the process.

Were I forced to attach to a cultural framework, it would be a Texas framework with the Chinese context. We are always polite until the politesse is manipulated or "advantage taken.". At that point, "anything goes."

Meet force with equal force. The attacker chooses the level of the response.

Namo Amitofo
-Fa Dao-

[gotamo]

Hi,
I just couldn´t hold back,making a commentary. What is so difficult reading the whole
Pali Canon.
There it is written the humans do posess "lightbeings". Please do excuse that i translated it the way it is now, but i could not find another way of expressing it.One of my most favorite sentende
of Pali Canon is from the Elevated One: There is a Here and a Beyond and there is a rewar for good and bad deeds."
These two sentenced show so much of the teaching. Fo zhr 8golf pszh, ehsz rldr fo xou nrff<ß

Love, pity and compassion
gotamo buddho

[Catmoon]

Fo zhr 8golf pszh, ehsz rldr fo xou nrff<ß

gotamo buddho

You don't say...

[dennis60]

No one knows for sure what happens after death. The Tibetan tradition says that we hang out in in world called the "Bardo" and are attracted to peaceful and wrathful deities. The say pay no attention to this apparitions because they are mind produced and they happen because we want to be reborn in this world,. They tell us to pay no attention to these fantasies. I think that these teachings are for the here and now. Pay no attention to the mind produced images of good and bad that we produce. Meditate to empty the mind and keep it still and empty of thoughts. Keep your heart open, and when it closes be sure to confess what is troubling you and breath in the air that will fill your heart back up. Do not worry about death. It does no good and is a waste of time. Practice always, under all circumstances. And make no excuses for leaving the path.....

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