Monks using the knife blamelessly

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Monks using the knife blamelessly

Postby Element on Sat Aug 29, 2009

Dear forum

There are a number of suttas in cannon, such as the Channovada Sutta, where a monk ends their life by their own hand due to terminal illness and extreme pain.

On these occassions, the Buddha declared (after certain monks would try to attribute blame): "When one lays down this body and takes up a new body, then I say one is blameworthy. This did not happen in the case of the bhikkhu. The bhikkhu used the knife blamelessly".

Today, I listened to the painful account of how my friend's partner died. Legal contracts were signed allowing the doctor and nurse to withhold fluids and other things, if requested, so death could occur faster. There was so much pain, many times my friend would plead with the nurse: "Can't you just give him an overdose and finish it!" Her partner would awaken from the morphene stupor, requesting fluids, contrary to his contractual requests. It appears my friend's partner's mind was (naturally) still fighting for life.

In listening to the account, I recalled the suttas and reflected upon how it would be to use the knife blamelessly.

What do we think the Buddha meant when saying: "The bhikkhu used the knife blamelessly".

:|
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Re: Monks using the knife blamelessly

Postby Gena1480 on Sat Aug 29, 2009

In the purest sense this mean
the Bhikku died free from fatter/taints
blameless,free from blame.
he will not be reborn no more.
metta.
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Re: Monks using the knife blamelessly

Postby Yeshe on Sat Aug 29, 2009

Element wrote:Dear forum

There are a number of suttas in cannon, such as the Channovada Sutta, where a monk ends their life by their own hand due to terminal illness and extreme pain.

On these occassions, the Buddha declared (after certain monks would try to attribute blame): "When one lays down this body and takes up a new body, then I say one is blameworthy. This did not happen in the case of the bhikkhu. The bhikkhu used the knife blamelessly".

Today, I listened to the painful account of how my friend's partner died. Legal contracts were signed allowing the doctor and nurse to withhold fluids and other things, if requested, so death could occur faster. There was so much pain, many times my friend would plead with the nurse: "Can't you just give him an overdose and finish it!" Her partner would awaken from the morphene stupor, requesting fluids, contrary to his contractual requests. It appears my friend's partner's mind was (naturally) still fighting for life.

In listening to the account, I recalled the suttas and reflected upon how it would be to use the knife blamelessly.

What do we think the Buddha meant when saying: "The bhikkhu used the knife blamelessly".

:|


I have read nothing which the Buddha has said which promotes the concept of 'blame'. Neither have I seen any teaching on karma which allows for emotive 'blame'. 'Responsibility' may be closer.

He may be describing how a Bhikkhu SHOULD behave, rather than generalising.

To end a life in order to end suffering, without any personal involvement would seem blameless - as a pet owner asking a vet to end the suffering of a pet. However, if the life is taken because one cannot bear to see the animal suffer, that would seem wrong, as it is 'self cherishing'.

The monk who takes his own life to end the suffering of his body can do so 'blamelessly' as long as he does so without attachment to that body. If he thinks: 'I must end MY suffering' it would seem wrong, as again it is 'self' centred.

A monk may, however, cognise that there is a body within which there is suffering which should be ended, and the only way to do so is to end life. The 'intention' becomes the critical element in the decision. However, ending life for any reason may create bad karma - I have no idea how that would weigh in the balance against allowing suffering to continue.

The Bhikkhu, it would seem, would also not have any motivation to gain a new or better lifefor him'self', but would have a pure motivation to escape samsara. Hence his action would be positive rather than negative. This is conjecture on my part, as it assumes the Bhikkhu's motivation matches what the Buddha describes. ;)
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Re: Monks using the knife blamelessly

Postby Bhikkhu Ananda on Sat Feb 20, 2010

Element wrote:Dear forum

There are a number of suttas in cannon, such as the Channovada Sutta, where a monk ends their life by their own hand due to terminal illness and extreme pain.

On these occassions, the Buddha declared (after certain monks would try to attribute blame): "When one lays down this body and takes up a new body, then I say one is blameworthy. This did not happen in the case of the bhikkhu. The bhikkhu used the knife blamelessly".

Today, I listened to the painful account of how my friend's partner died. Legal contracts were signed allowing the doctor and nurse to withhold fluids and other things, if requested, so death could occur faster. There was so much pain, many times my friend would plead with the nurse: "Can't you just give him an overdose and finish it!" Her partner would awaken from the morphene stupor, requesting fluids, contrary to his contractual requests. It appears my friend's partner's mind was (naturally) still fighting for life.

In listening to the account, I recalled the suttas and reflected upon how it would be to use the knife blamelessly.

What do we think the Buddha meant when saying: "The bhikkhu used the knife blamelessly".

:|


Monk is not allowed to assist in suicide. Such would be a case of defeat. It is impossble that an Arahant would deliberately deprive a living being of life.

Ven. Channa had the opportunity to change his mind and live on for the welfare and happiness of beings for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of angels and humans.

Buddha clarified that when one lays down this body and clings to another body one is blameworthy. There was none of that in the Bhikkhu Channa.

But if someone else had killed him they would have gone to hell for killing an Arahant. Never kill mother or father for the same reason.

Abstaing from killing is the right way to end suffering.
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Re: Monks using the knife blamelessly

Postby Element on Sat Feb 20, 2010

Bhikkhu Ananda wrote:Ven. Channa had the opportunity to change his mind and live on for the welfare and happiness of beings for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of angels and humans.

It seems to "live on" was probably impossible for Channa.

If life has the final stages of cancer, with unbearable pain, how can one "live on"?

:|
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Re: Monks using the knife blamelessly

Postby Bhikkhu Ananda on Mon Mar 01, 2010

Element wrote:
Bhikkhu Ananda wrote:Ven. Channa had the opportunity to change his mind and live on for the welfare and happiness of beings for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of angels and humans.

It seems to "live on" was probably impossible for Channa.

If life has the final stages of cancer, with unbearable pain, how can one "live on"?

:|


Taking strong pain medicine even with concern of side effects is less risky to life than committing suicide.
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Re: Monks using the knife blamelessly

Postby Traveller on Mon Mar 01, 2010

Element wrote:
Bhikkhu Ananda wrote:Ven. Channa had the opportunity to change his mind and live on for the welfare and happiness of beings for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of angels and humans.

It seems to "live on" was probably impossible for Channa.

If life has the final stages of cancer, with unbearable pain, how can one "live on"?

:|



2500 years ago there were no proper pain control and the only way to stop this is through euthanasia. This should not be the case today.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.
I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.


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Re: Monks using the knife blamelessly

Postby Bhikkhu Ananda on Wed Apr 21, 2010

2500 years ago


Recently I visited India and in Rajgir had seen Jivakas garden.

Jivaka was the Buddha's Doctor and provided free care for the Sangha.

Check out the Jivaka section in the Great Section of the Vinaya for some of the types of cures he did.

Inspiring service to the one perfect in vijja and carana.



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